{"id":2964,"date":"2025-04-11T13:05:54","date_gmt":"2025-04-11T13:05:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.systemischcodesign.nl\/?p=2964"},"modified":"2025-04-17T07:50:57","modified_gmt":"2025-04-17T07:50:57","slug":"interview-with-liliya-and-jochem-you-can-feel-the-play-of-forces","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.systemischcodesign.nl\/en\/2025\/04\/11\/interview-with-liliya-and-jochem-you-can-feel-the-play-of-forces\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Liliya and Jochem: “You can feel the play of forces”"},"content":{"rendered":"

[vc_row][vc_column][vc_column_text css=””]Liliya Terzieva<\/span><\/i><\/b> is Professor of Designing Value Networks at The Hague University of Applied Sciences. On 2 April 2024, she delivered her inaugural lecture ‘Collaborative futures: navigating value networks for lasting impact’. The same day, the book ‘Tackling social transitions together’ about transition management and developing networks, which she wrote together with Katinka Bergema and Christine De Lille, was launched.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Jochem Galama <\/span><\/i><\/b>is a designer and visual design thinker and a practical partner affiliated with ESC. His company Contour Industrial Design Solutions has it\u2019s 25th anniversary this year.<\/span><\/i>[\/vc_column_text][vc_column_text css=””]The big\u00a0leap\u00a0that\u00a0the\u00a0Expertise Network\u00a0Systemic\u00a0Co-Design has made in\u00a0the\u00a0third\u00a0year\u00a0of\u00a0its\u00a0existence\u00a0is\u00a0that\u00a0it\u00a0has\u00a0succeeded\u00a0in making the invisible\u00a0knowledge\u00a0visible\u00a0and\u00a0tangible.\u00a0This\u00a0happened\u00a0during the discovery expedition\u00a0that\u00a0professor Liliya Terzieva\u00a0and\u00a0designer Jochem\u00a0Galama\u00a0embarked upon\u00a0together, in a quest on how\u00a0to\u00a0translate \u2018the\u00a0operation\u00a0of systems\u2019\u00a0into\u00a0a\u00a0knowledge\u00a0product\u00a0that\u00a0can\u00a0be\u00a0applicable\u00a0in\u00a0practice.\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

\u201cYou can touch it, it exists physically, and thus you can immediately interact with it. Jochem designed that fantastically,\u201d says Liliya. The collaboration not only resulted in an engaging and appealing mechanical model, but also brought something else: \u201cI now perceive the value of collaborating and co-creating with the practical partners even better. The search with Jochem has lifted my understanding of how Systemic Co-Design works in practice to a new level,\u201d says Liliya.<\/p>\n

Jochem, tell us. How do you make a professor so enthusiastic?
\n<\/span><\/b>Jochem: \u201cLiliya\u2019s scientific research and my designs deal with the same subject: how does a system work and how can you realize further improvements through joint interventions? My mechanical twin helps discover what your view is on a situation, what you feel and experience in it and how you can convey that. All stakeholders are given both a voice and a role in the process.\u201d<\/p>\n

Liliya: “That fits so well with our research, in which we look at multistakeholder interactions and where we have to deal with uncertainties and complexity.”\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Why did you participate in the ESCall scheme?
\n<\/span><\/b>Jochem: “The ESCall gave me the opportunity to explore a conceptual idea for a systemic intervention. ESC paired me with Liliya.”<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>[\/vc_column_text][vc_tta_accordion active_section=”1″ collapsible_all=”true”][vc_tta_section title=”ESCall: a call to share knowledge” tab_id=”1744375792939-9761203d-1ee8″][vc_column_text css=””]In 2024, <\/span>the<\/span> expertise <\/span>network<\/span> made a <\/span>subsidy<\/span> of up <\/span>to<\/span> 7,500 <\/span>euros<\/span> per <\/span>application<\/span> available<\/span> to<\/span> entrepreneurs <\/span>affiliated<\/span> with<\/span> ESC. The <\/span>aim<\/span> is <\/span>to<\/span> record <\/span>the<\/span> systemic co-design knowledge<\/span> of entrepreneurs in a <\/span>knowledge<\/span> product, <\/span>so<\/span> that<\/span> it<\/span> becomes<\/span> available<\/span> to<\/span> others<\/span> and<\/span> can<\/span> be<\/span> used<\/span> in <\/span>other<\/span> contexts<\/span>. The <\/span>scheme<\/span> offers partners <\/span>the<\/span> opportunity <\/span>to<\/span> prototype and realise a systemic co-design intervention that was lying on the shelf<\/span>. <\/span>Eight<\/span> partners have made <\/span>use<\/span> of it.\u00a0<\/span><\/span>\u00a0<\/span>[\/vc_column_text][\/vc_tta_section][\/vc_tta_accordion][vc_column_text css=””]
\nWhat experience do you bring?<\/span><\/b>
\n<\/span>Jochem: “I guide my clients in providing insight into layered, multi-stakeholder issues such as innovation, strategy, change processes or tenders. No matter how different the organizations are, I see many similarities in their problems: people have a limited perspective, which means that the view of the entire system is lacking. As a result, managers do not oversee the effects of a decision. One of my clients is KLM. With the use of visual designs, I have helped KLM to improve communication and processes between the departments and layers in the organization.”\u00a0<\/span>
\n<\/span>
\nLiliya: “A good example of an organization where the systemic problems were invisible. It shows how important it is to be able to observe the entire system, to make visible what specific role each plays in it and what impact that has on others.”<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

How did you translate the abstract theory into practice?<\/span><\/b>
\n<\/span>Liliya: “Jochem has designed a model that makes the relationships in systems and the dynamics in systems visible. It is a visual representation of the system, from a holistic view. It shows the emergence of other subsystems and it creates awareness of the impact they have on each other.”\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

What you have created looks like a 3D model. How does it work?<\/span><\/b>
\n<\/span>Jochem: “It is a ‘mechanical systemic twin’. We don’t call it a 3D model, but a 4D model, because you not only see the systemic environment and the players in it, but also a fourth dimension: movement. I designed that with gears: when you turn a cog, the whole system starts moving. You can feel the play of forces. You can see that the elements have to fit together despite their different shapes. At the same time, you also see that space is needed for the elements to be able to move. The model helps to discover where there is room for improvement and to discuss that.”<\/span>
\n<\/span>
\nLiliya: “That’s how it works in collaboration between people. A small action by an employee affects the system. You can make interventions at all levels. This insight helps to arrive at a more democratic approach to transitions. <\/span>Empower the people!<\/span><\/i>”\u00a0<\/span>\u00a0<\/span>[\/vc_column_text]